After watching Shanea ride on friday I knew I had to ride Saturday. To be honest my stomach was in knots and I was feeling apprehensive. However, I tacked her up and put on the lunging equipment and up we went. It was super windy which doesn't help either.
And she was fine. Mellow and easy. There was one spook later in the ride but she immediately surged forward - it was literally:
*Carmen stops and bounces on her front legs* What the F horse? Oh, we're going to head right up to it? All righty then.
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| I am sure I didn't look like this, but I felt like it. |
Other than that it was a good ride and I was happy. So was Carmen.
Then there was today. Ed was not home but I wanted to ride in the morning. I brought Irish in and normally Carmen follows along. This time she opted to stay in the field so I went and brought her in. Her manners getting caught, led, groomed and tacked up were impeccable. The first few minutes of the ride were fine. We were headed down to the area where she knocked the board out (we had gone by it a couple times already) when she did a big 'nope'.
I didn't worry about it at first- I put my leg on and then I booted her forward. The next thing I know I am in a spiral with Carmen and she is essentially saying fuck you.
She even felt like she could rear. Which is a non-negotiable for me. If she ever rears on me she is for sale. I booted her forward and growled. Carmen was being a right pig to be honest. I was feeling very unsafe and decided to dismount to lunge her.
Except when I tried to get off she threatened to bolt. (sigh, that again). I tried a couple times and it was not working.
I was feeling flustered, frightened and alone. I was on a horse that felt unsafe to ride and unsafe to get off of. There was no one around to help. I wished that Shanea was there to help me feel secure. I wished someone was riding with me. I wished Ed was home.
So I did the only thing I could think of to do: I booted her forward into a canter. That got her moving and I steered her on a circle. I wouldn't let her gallop and I controlled the bed but by god we were moving forward. I was able to gradually move the circle down the ring. After what felt like hours of cantering (probably a solid 10 minutes) I was able to bring her back to trot and we went to work.
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| when in doubt go forward |
In the end the ride was largely fine but I am not happy with how it started and I am not happy with feeling unsafe. This mare needs to get over herself and get moving forward. She is not afraid- of that I am sure. At the end of the ride she was tuned in and listening and no longer paying attention to potential monsters. I was determined that there would be no spooks and other than the first of the ride there were not.
The thing is that we've had some wonderful, consistent rides this year and I'm not sure what is making the wheels come off one day vs another. Maybe I dealt with it correctly. Who knows? Not me, that's for sure. I'm just dealing with it as it comes.
And I'm open to advice but if you write just ride relaxed and with confidence I will hunt you down and slap you with a fish. Because I am - I didn't start the ride today with anything other than that.
After in the barn she was relaxed and happy. I needed to relax so I let the dogs out and tacked up Irish and we headed for the woods. Carmen was less than happy to be left in the barn but she had hay and I ignored her protests. I was super impressed with how good the dogs were because this is new for them (we have my son's dog while he's away). Guinness was trying to figure out how to get me to throw the ball.
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| Guinness: now how is this going to work? |
It was fun and just what I needed. I can't believe I haven't done this before. Irish is my security blanket. As I rode I reflected on how far he's come. I have come off Irish many more times then I have with Carmen. There were lots of times I felt unsafe on him and he is responsible for my broken finger and some pretty hefty bruises. Now I take him out and head right out to the woods. But he never really had a 'nope' in him. So I don't know if the deliberateness of Carmen's behaviour is better or worse?
I am going to add in more hacking out on Irish into my routine. We both can benefit.
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| this view is good for my soul |
I've posted before what I think about this and my opinion is reinforced by your last couple of entries. But I don't like to harp on things: I'd rather be supportive.
ReplyDeleteI think the answers are in this blog and your gut. We do this for fun. You had fun on Irish. I can't express enough how wonderful it is to have a trustworthy horse after having one that was hyper-reactive. You have put in time, effort and paid expertise. It's ok to say this is not the path you want to travel.
Thanks Ginny. As always I do appreciate your honesty
DeleteSounds to me like you did everything right. Forward is always always the answer as I have learned with Pax. It's no fun though when you're dealing with it and I hope things start getting more consistent with Carmen.
ReplyDeleteForward is the answer. It’s the sideways and spins I have trouble with.
DeleteGood for you riding it out, she gave you no choice but to rider like the b-eotch she was being!
ReplyDeleteGrandson came off his mini for the first time yesterday. Bareback in a turn, he simply slid off. He had a worried look till I told him, "wow, you came off, you're a horseman now!" Up he jumped and climbed right back on.
Thanks. I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting and I’m done with being bullied. Good for your grandson!
Delete"and slap you with a fish" Okay. I died a little bit laughing hard at that!
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, my advice was going to be to take a mental escape doing some other things like riding Irish, and then I scrolled and BOOM that's what you did! Carmen is being a total snot! I can totally understand how incredibly FRUSTRATING that is for you because, oh hey, I've got a mare with a similar personality. For me and Q, it's been SO helpful for me to spend time riding Grif and Stan. It helps me step back, enjoy myself, and rearrange my thoughts/mind to see what things I do differently in my interactions with Grif and Stan that I don't do with Q. A lot of it comes from how much I trust the horse, but sometimes those little things make a really big difference to such a sensitive soul like Q/Carmen. Your process will be totally unique to you, but my only advice would be to spend more time with your best guy who give you those happy and safe feelings. The more time you spend with him, I bet you'll be able to piece together some ideas for what/how you can move forward with Carmen and get out of this sticky spot. At the least, having more of those happy feelings will ease the frustrating moments with Carmen. You're a very talented horsewoman, I know you've got this and will find a way forward. I believe in you. =)
Sorry, I get a little triggered sometimes. At one of my shows this stranger told me ‘you know horses feel your emotions and if you ride with confidence they will be confident ‘ and then acted like she had handed me the holy grail of training. Gah.
Delete<3
ReplyDeleteIt can be so damn frustrating when they just decide to "nope" out of things. Especially when you have been having such good rides and then all of a sudden they act like total fuck-wits. I am sorry she is making you reconsider your methods and your intentions, but I think you are on the right track. Carmen is so sensitive but damn BOLD, which makes it a tricky combination. You've come so far with her and you are such a tactful and thoughtful rider - one day she will learn to appreciate that.
As a side note, I'm glad you had a wonderful ride with Irish. Sometimes when Annie is being a giant ass face I take Spud out instead of pushing and pushing. Breaks are nice, and well needed to bring you back down to earth.
Yes, I need to exercise Irish anyway. We might as well have fun.
DeleteTeresa, the only thing I can think of is to have her checked to make sure nothing is causing her pain. I know she is young, but it would rule out a physical issue, which makes it simply and solely her attitude. If it’s attitude, you are addressing it the way I would. Continue to ride her forward, work her harder than you might have if she had been good and know where your line is drawn. I can say, being persistent and consistent were the keys to moving forward with Ashke. (And we trotted some rides. Never even progressed to canter because it felt unsafe.)
ReplyDeleteI have thought of that too. The only thing I can think of is her heats and I’m planning to start her on raspberry leaves to see if it helps
DeleteI’m with Karen here too re: source of pain. My hyper reactive mare (Lily) a nervous wreck when in heat no matter how calm I was. She was a completely different horse. I started giving her bute at those times to rule out cramps (like with us women) and it helped a lot. I think being in pain made her feel vulnerable. Gracie is more likely to fuss or give a nope when in heat. With her I switch to something low key and less intense and that usually helps. You’re doing everything right riding and confidence-wise. I’d look for a physical cause for the behavior.
DeleteNote also: in fall mares are transitioning to anestrus and that last heat of the year can be a bear.
DeleteYes, the anestrus did occur to me too. LIke I said, I'm going to try rapberry and discuss regumate with my vet. There is a marked difference. I may try the bute to see if it helps.
DeleteFall weather. My worst rides happened in fall. You have a really talented mare, and you’ll need a different plan for when the weather gets crisp.
ReplyDeleteIt will likely involve wine. Lots of wine.
DeleteI can only say what I would do, and everyone is different. I think she has shown great promise, at times. And I think there is enough there for you to work with and succeed...
ReplyDeleteHowever, it seems like she has some holes in her foundation and would benefit from someone riding her for you for a while. A combo of some serious hacking and arena work, staggered each day. One day of arena, the next day trails. I would let a pro take the risks—they have more tools. Then, they can give her back and she will realize how good she has it. You can build on that by taking lessons with Carmen and the trainer.
That is what I plan to do with Tumbleweed.
I do plan to have Shanea ride her some more. I feel like Royce filled in a lot of holes. I have been thinking and it really seems to me that the remaining hole is the one of obedience
DeleteWhich is a time and consistency issue. Especially with a horse that has a strong sense of self and not much obedience to begin with. (My trainer says “we are working on obedience, because he is not submissive”) but for what you want to do, the energy that comes with riding a horse with opinions should eventually translate into higher scores in the court.
DeleteHer talent is undeniable. If I was having arguments all the time it would be one thing. But I am not and when it's good it's magical. Lord knows I am consistent and putting in time. I may just have to put on my big girl panties and hammer that lesson home.
DeleteI don’t have any words of wisdom for you. Lucy is sensitive, and spooks at trolls, but she doesn’t have a disobedient bone in her body. Winston was extremely opinionated and I had that scared feeling on him a lot that you describe. It took me getting hurt to sell him. It was hard to come to that decision because he was talented. But, the attitude wasn’t worth it. I feel like Carmen is somewhere between Lucy and Winston. I have no idea what you should do. I feel your frustration. (And kudos for being brave and sending her forward)
ReplyDeleteIf 8 had that scared feeling a lot she would be for sale. But I really don’t anymore. It’s just been lately.
DeletePS. I base some of this on what I saw in the videos you posted. There was some major evasion going on, and sometimes it’s better to meet that with a closed door for a while. The pros, like Shanea, can shut it down, until Carmen stops going there. You can do it, too, of course. But it’s dangerous.
ReplyDeleteYes I agree- it’s all about the evasion.
DeleteThem sensitive mares sure know how to amp up the drama! You handled it like a champ! E-hug!
ReplyDeleteSounds like Carmen has a bit of an ego! Honestly your ride sounds like one I've been having on Bast about once a week. He decides he'd rather just not, figured out balking then bolting is intimidating, and runs right for that. I found riding his bolt forward IN FRONT OF MY LEG AND INTO MY HAND YOU SNARKY F*** has been the key. Turns out Bast finds bolting in an uphill frame a PITA and would rather just cooperate, thnx. It's mildly terrifying for a few minutes, but eventually results in a much more respectful horse. Sigh. Young horses are the absolute worst sometimes...
ReplyDeleteYes, this works for Carmen too- I ride her bolts forward and put her ass to work. The balking is more problematic. I am working on a plan for that......
DeleteArgh I’m sorry :( it’s so extremely frustrating to keep having the same battles again and again. She’s a cool mare and you’ve done great things with her but damn wouldn’t it be nice if like, every now and then she could just chill about that freakin corner????
ReplyDeleteYou said it.
DeleteIrish is a sweetheart and it’s good you have him for a calming backup after Carmen’s shenanigans. It’s always nice to have a back up horse you can count on. I have no real advice other than do what you’re doing with Carmen. When she gets bitchy like she did just don’t put up with it. Make her do what you want. She doesn’t get to have an opinion when it’s dangerous for you. You have the tools to deal with her nonsense and correct her. I guess the only advice I would have is don’t ride alone...just in case you need help. It’s always nice to know there’s someone around to lend a hand.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the encouragement. I try to not ride alone but often I have to or rarely ride. :(.
DeleteI find fake spooking so incredibly frustrating (Henry is Dora the explorer of looking for things to spook at when he's not in a working mood). I think you handled the situation beautifully. I spent a lot of time being reminded of how hard the ground was in 2017 and that certainly rattled my confidence, it's especially challenging to ride out a spook on a more athletic type of horse because it's so much bigger/scarier. I think your ride on Irish was a wonderful idea, a nice fun break but still some saddle time :) I don't have any helpful suggestions as this is something I'm working through myself right now, just know you're not alone! And remember to breathe (I love to stop breathing through scary moments and that makes my body more tense), I hope that last part won't get me slapped with a fish :P
ReplyDeleteI will echo the comments of others who thought of "mare problems" also, Mystic was on raspberry leaf for a particularly "mare-ish" time and it did really help her.
Thank you. And no, no fish slapping for you. :) I was a little cranky when I wrote that but I am tired of people who see you ride for like five minutes and then are all 'I can solve ALL your problems with this one simple tool'
DeleteI thought about this more and I remember how great Carmen did at the obstacle work clinics. Is it possible she has soured on arena work? It would explain the growing evasions. Maybe she doesn’t see the point. Bored. Frustrated.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely that is part of it. But I dunno if this wouldn't creep in to that work. What I didn't write was that I had put in some pole configurations to play with so that I could keep it interesting. I do my best to shuffle it up and keep good rides short. I hack out as much as possible.
DeleteIf one were to do a true assessment of your mare’s temperament, what would it be? I believe so much of what a horse or dog is made of is their breeding. All the training in the world won’t rule out a bad or unstable temperament. Having read your blog since you purchased your mare, I’ve been aware of the many times that she has been unreliable to ride. With time and sweat in the saddle, you may be able to have the mare you want her to be but I do feel that good breeding tells and maybe she may not be the right mare for you. Are you privy to any information about the temperament of her sire or dam? Genetics do play a large part in the make up of a horses temperament, or a dog’s. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteHer sire is known for hot, reactive horses. So that is not a surprise. Her dam was part of a Cobra brought from Spain. I met her and she seemed quiet and confident. But I didn't see her ridden.
DeleteMy young horse can be super reactive and I found clicker training to be incredibly effective with him. In it's simplest form, horses (and people) perform behaviors that have resulted in some sort of reinforcement. So any bad behavior the horse offers has been reinforced in the past. The solution is to create stronger reinforcement histories with good behavior and figure out how the bad behavior is being reinforced so you can eliminate that reinforcement.
ReplyDeleteIf this were TC, I'd put him on the long lines and clicker train the "go" button from a voice command, rewarding with clicks/treats when he responds. Then take that undersaddle and clicker train that button again, with both my leg and the voice command. Then go back to the ground and do the same thing in the problem area of the arena. I try not to punish him or ride differently when he's bad, as it just increases tension and I've taken my time reducing tension in him lol.
I've used clicker training with Irish to get him into water (and to not jump 6 feet over a 6 inch stream). I wasn't sure of my ability to coordinate that in the saddle with Carmen. :D But it's worth a shot.
DeleteI try to ignore and ride forward but the balking and spinning thing throws me for a loop (literally).
Just ride relaxed and with confidence! There - now will you come hunt me down so I can meet you in person?? LOL!!!! I have no advice beyond rule out pain (saddle, feet, ovaries etc...) and if it is attitude figure out what you are willing to put up with on your own and when/if you want to send her off although if it is an obedience issue that may not solve it when you are in the saddle versus another rider. Hang in there. I hope it gets better again.
ReplyDeleteThat's it Missy! Prepare yourself for a fish-whomping! ROFL.
DeleteI commented late lastnight, but I'm not sure if it went through or not... it looks like it didn't.
ReplyDeleteIt can be frustrating, especially when you have nice consistent rides and then bam, back to square one again. Carmen is such a sensitive but damn BOLD mare. Which, is a pretty tricky combination to figure out.
You've done so well with her thus far tho, and I know you are a tactful and intelligent rider that can get through to her. It can be hard tho, to keep fighting with the same demons. Come on Carmen mare, just put your "yes ma'am" boots on!!
Yeah, I've been doing lots and lots of thinking about it. And have some thoughts.
Deletewhich i realize sounds really stupid. Hopefully I can make more sense tomorrow.
DeleteHaha no it doesn’t sound stupid. You’re trying to break it down to build it back up. It helps to write sometimes, even if you don’t make sense :)
DeleteI’m sure you already have thought of this but have you tried treating for ulcers at all? It’s fIrly easy to try a couple of tubes and if it works you’ll have an answer. Katai can be reactive but when she really goes off the deep end I’ve learned that it’s 100% because of the pain from ulcers making her lock up and not want to go forward. Just thought I’d mention it since I feel like you and I have both dealt with some of the same things with our mares :)
ReplyDeleteI have thought of it but she shows no other signs. But it is in the hopper for consideration.
DeleteFeeling unsafe is the worst. My only advice is to have someone nearby next time, because that alone will help you feel secure. Then you can get to work.
ReplyDeleteI do try but it's not always easy. :)
DeleteI've mentioned before that Bridget has a huge "Nope" in her, and honestly it was pretty dangerous for a while while she tried out all the options to avoid working. I think you've been doing all the right things, and it really does get better with consistency. I'll suggest you have someone around to help you feel safer/more confident, plus consider hiding the 'work' as 'interesting fun things'...that really helped for Bridget. She liked jumping small things, for example, so we were able to disguise a lot of dressage canter work as 'jumping'.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realize that she was that bad. She always seems so calm. I do try but will have to work harder at it. To be fair, we had only been walking for 5 minutes so there really was no reason (yet) to get mad at the work.
DeleteShe's pretty calm, but also very determined. she once opted out of forward so badly that she reared and fell over on top of me, not to mention the months of running into things/falling over instead of simply giving her shoulder and turning. I know that makes her sound terrible, but she really turned out just fine in the end :)
DeleteRiding a mare with a very strong opposing opinion can feel so damn scary. I've just been through a summer of people telling me it must be pain. but after ruling out every possibility, one by one, at the end of the day my mare is just a total dangerous shit sometimes. Randomly. I totally get wanting to smack people with fish--a smart horse using behaviors to assert their control over you has nothing to do with getting on calm. Good luck Theresa, no advice, just can totally relate.
ReplyDelete