Oh my, where does the time go? It seems like only yesterday I brought Quaid home but it's been 12! When he arrived I kept him separated from Irish and Carmen. I wanted to give him time to settle in and I needed to get him used to grass.
I should give a warning that this is not a sunshine and unicorns post.
In my last post I was starting to introduce him to Irish. I did that deliberately as Irish is quite sweet and gentle while Carmen is, well, Carmen. I started with short stints putting Irish and Quaid together. It didn't take long for everyone to settle down.
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| just in case you think I wasn't paying attention. they were getting along really really well. |
After a few days of this, after my ride I put a halter on Carmen and took her out to the field and let her graze with Irish and Quaid. When he came too close she drove him off but I was at the end of the lead to stop it from being serious. Everyone settled down and I brought them all in for supper.
The next day, again after a ride, I took Carmen out on the lead. When all was calm (which didn't take long) I slipped off her halter and stepped back. Things went fairly well. When Quaid got to close Carmen chased him off with pinned ears and an angry face but as soon as he left they settled. I stayed around puttering but wasn't too worried. About an hour in I heard a big kerfuffle out in the field. I went out and I saw Irish desperately circling Carmen who was chasing Quaid. Because of Irish's neurological condition he can't do sharp turns, which meant he kept slipping and falling. Ideally he would have recognized that he can't do spins but no, he just kept trying harder and getting worse. I was convinced he was going to break a leg. I walked out to the middle of this chaos and said in my most authoritative voice 'WHOA!'
Carmen came to a screeching halt. Oh thank god you are here to take control of this shit show. She calmed down right away, as did Quaid. Irish was frantic and kept circling and bumping into me. I had to chase him off. I brought everyone in for dinner and did some thinking.
The next day I turned Irish and Quaid out together. After I rode Carmen, I brought Irish to the back field and put Carmen out with Quaid. It went fairly well. She chased him a bit but it wasn't dangerous and the two of them seemed to be working things out. A few times it even looked more playful then aggressive. They settled at a respectful distance grazing. A little later I went out and gave Carmen some scritches and then went out to groom Quaid. After a bit he swung his butt into me- it wasn't intentional he just saw something and turned to look. I got after him for that and then Carmen came charging over and chased him off.
Carmen: you DO NOT bump into mom!
With a derisive snort she then went off and back to grazing.
While this was happening Irish was freaking out in the next field. He settled a bit but not a lot. I turned Carmen out with him for a bit before bringing them in. I have to take them one at a time and, because Carmen was closest, I took her first. Irish charged by us through the gate and galloped around. I looked at him and said 'okay fine, you are on your own then' and walked Carmen into the barn. He charged into his stall and I shut the door. He was a mess, sweaty and urine crusted hind legs. When everyone was in I took Irish out to hose off his hind legs and the sweat. When he was taken out of the barn he lost his mind- screaming, charging me, and trying to take off. He was, frankly, dangerous and I had to beat him off me. He was literally 30 feet from Carmen and could see her in her stall.
The next day Irish was out with Quaid - I actually gave him some ACE to see if I could get him to calm down and learn that Quaid is not a threat to his mare. After a bit I brought Carmen in to ride. Irish again lost his mind, throwing his body at the barn and cutting himself. Carmen was fine with the commotion and fine during our ride. I then put them all out together. Other than Irish staying between Carmen and Quaid it was okay.
Sunday I didn't bother to ride, we also got our hay that weekend and I was, frankly, tired. Dominique came out and we did some chores and cleaned some tack. I also did some work with Quaid (a different post because this one is getting long). We decided to bring Irish in to groom him and give him some 1-1 attention.
It was a disaster. He lost his mind and was dangerous again. I had to hold and correct him while he was groomed and then we hosed him off. Usually Irish is easy to correct- a quick growl does it. This time I had to get physical with him before he even noticed me.
I was feeling pretty down. I can't have a horse that is dangerous to handle. In the past I have taken Carmen away from Irish all the time and he has never minded. Clearly it has to do with him feeling that Quaid is a threat. That can be dealt with because he's not dangerous and Quaid is respectful. It the me taking Carmen out to ride that causes the problem.
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| peeking at me working the new guy |
On Monday Julia came out and we played with separation. I put a halter on Carmen and Irish. I would walk Carmen away and when Irish freaked out, Julia would put him to work. We increased the distance and it worked fairly well. So I think things are getting better, but not where it needs to be. Irish is wreck, his lip is cut (like how horse? , he has cut his hind legs by stepping on himself, there's a gouge out of his side and he's lame (looks like body soreness rather than leg lameness). I can't have a horse that is dangerous to handle so I am giving him a bit of time. But if he doesn't calm down I may need to make some difficult decisions; unless he kills himself first.
Through all of this, Quaid is being respectful and calm. Even when Irish is losing his mind, he's looking at him like 'wow, that's a lot of energy' . When Irish tries to chase him, he just trots away and then goes back to grazing.
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| Quaid: playing with dogs seems safer then getting between those two |
In case you weren't paying attention, the most mature horse on the property is the 2 year old. The second most mature is 12 and the least mature is 22.
I have long ceased being surprised at what happens when you introduce new horses. It's almost always a shit show in some new, unpredictable way. I still haven't let Tumbleweed out with Cowgirl and Epona. Cowgirl went lame for a bit, and had to be stalled anyway. She's sound again, but if I let them out together, she will die trying to control him, and frankly, she's can't keep up with the young Tumbleweed. Their fighting is vicious. In that way, she is like poor Irish. They want to be the boss, but those old bodies can't deliver the necessary coup d'etat. I hope he settles down for you. He should, once he bonds with Quaid and accepts the new order. The new order, however, will probably have him at the bottom. Quaid appears to be a quiet leader type.
ReplyDeletethank you for this. I wanted to reach out to you with your herd experience. out in the field all is pretty quiet. It's when I take Carmen that all hell breaks loose.
DeleteHere are my thoughts, just brainstorming from thousands of miles away. Haha.
DeleteThere’s so much we don’t know that goes on between horses and in individual horses. It often makes sense in retrospect. They do work it out, but yes, he might injure himself during the process. Quaid has upset the balance Irish had in his herd, and he’s insecure. Since it has to be (they all 3 have to be together, no other options, which is different than me with 9 horses and separate pastures) I think Irish will have to sink or swim. If Quaid or Carmen are any danger, since they’re your riding horses and have a lot of life left, it’s a different equation—similar to mine with Epona / Tweed / Cowgirl. Taking a risk of injury is too much.
I think your stalls have Irish and Carmen next to one another. You might want to separate them, with Quaid in the middle. I do a lot of my herd work in placement of stalls and runs. Another thing I do is keep a horse at 1/2 rations until I take the buddy away, then feed them the other half. I had that issue when taking Foxy from Tweed and Cowgirl from Epona. Irish kind of reminds me of a baby being weaned.
Sorry if I’m way off or repeating what you’ve already done.
Ugh, I'm sorry this isn't going smoothly. I hope things get better soon. I don't turn my horses out together, but still had a similar first few days when Pammon moved home. I used some ace for a few days to help him settle down. Hopefully Irish will settle soon too. That's scary and and very stressful. I feel for you!
ReplyDeleteThank you!
DeleteHorses are hard 😢 I hope Irish settles in and is able to peacefully coexist with Quaid!
ReplyDeleteThey are. I was expecting that Carmen would be the difficult one.
Deleteugh Irish... c'mon buddy, take a xanax or something, plz? for real, tho... i know it seems super dramatic right now but it seems like it's almost naturally guaranteed to be temporary, right? like... horses are herd animals, their entire survival relies on being able to adapt and get along with a group. maybe it's just that since Irish is a little older and has lived for so long in his very small, intimate group, it's just a little bit slower of a process for him to adapt, vs the younger horses? regardless, my fingers are crossed for you -- and please stay safe!!
ReplyDeleteI hope that it works out. I have some safety things in place but hope it all evens out.
DeleteSorry to hear about your struggles. Vets here have largely embraced Trazadone as an effective, no side effect sedative for horses needing to stay quiet (for rehab, stall rest, etc.). Maybe something to consider for Irish to protect him from himself while he adjusts to the new herd dynamic?
ReplyDeleteHmm that is interesting. I will look into that.
DeleteSeconding the trazodone. I honestly hate ace in horses because it sedates them without doing anything for the anxiety that is causing the problem. I have seen horses still try to kill themselves on acepromazine doses that should have knocked out an elephant. If they are already amped up when ace is given, it doesn't do much to calm them down. We have the same problem with it in small animal medicine. It only dulls the horse, and can be dangerous to use in stressed-out animals as it can severely affect their coordination. It can also dangerously tank an animal's blood pressure, regardless of species. I wish equine vets would stop recommending it so much; we don't know what options we have as owners unless vets know to recommend alternatives.
DeleteTrazodone is a serotonin receptor antagonist and reuptake inhibitor that has been used extensively to treat anxiety in humans and small animals, and is now being used successfully in horses as well. It is used in dogs for behavior modification, and is proving to be just as useful in horses. It has a wide dose effectiveness range: some horses are sensitive to lower doses, whereas others need higher doses to achieve the same effect. The mare at my barn currently on it is fully functional and lucid, she simply doesn't exhibit any of her typical neurotic behaviors while on stall rest (weaving, cribbing, stall walking, refusing to eat.) She has actually gained weight because she is eating so well! My vet is very happy with how safe and effective it is in horses.
Wow. That sounds super stressful. I hope Irish settles down. Sometimes a bit of time and small controlled separations are helpful. Just like you are doing. Glad Quaid is a rock through it all!
ReplyDeleteIt has caused some sleepless nights. I'm hoping that things will settle soon.
DeleteHorses, they never cease to entertain and also make us pull our hair out. I am confident things will settle down soon, everyone always needs an adjustment period. Even though Quaid is the one acting like the reasonable adult and not Irish.
ReplyDeleteAt least it speaks to how my choices improve over time? :)
DeleteWe've experienced some interesting herd dynamics and when the horses are caught up in the moment, it is scary. Long story short, the two horses we brought over (mine and my trainer's) can't be ridden in the same arena together. My trainer's throws a temper tantrum (we think it's a dominance issue) when mine is in the ring, which is scary for the rider. We haven't figured out why he reacts that way but are hoping with more exposure, he'll eventually get used to it. Best of luck with Irish and I'm keeping my fingers crossed he doesn't seriously injure himself
ReplyDeleteThat is interesting. Years ago (decades really) I was in a riding lesson when another horse attacked mine. It was very scary and I ended up with a cracked pelvis.
DeleteImagine putting all of this in its proper context from the horse's POV: put them out on a grass steppe with endless space, no barns and a new horse coming around hangs out on the edges and introduction happens with running skirmishes. Everything we do goes counter to equine instinct so takes a lot longer and has more drama. I have found that it takes about 6 months for horses to truly integrate to a new home (double that for donkeys). Give them time and space and they will work it out.
ReplyDeleteAlso....it is normal for the older horse to drive off younger interlopers and for the younger to try to appease the older horse with calm language. We intrepid this as maturity levels, but again, from the equine point of view this is very typical behavior. It will get better!
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I really appreciate it!
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