This post has been circling around in my brain for a few months now and today is the day I'm going to try to put my thoughts down on, well not paper obviously, pixels? would that be the correct term?
Ahem, anyway.....
photo to break up the wall of text
There are a number of famous horse trainers that I follow on the various socials. One has a page on FB that is mostly for followers to ask questions. To be completely honest I read some of them and I cringe. The ones that make me shudder are ones that go like this:
hey, I have this 4 year old mare that I've been building a relationship with. I hang out with her in the pasture and when she turns away or looks unhappy I back up and give her space. She's getting more and more communicative but now when I go in the pasture she pins her ears and charges at me. I wonder what I have missed in her communication and how can I repair the damage?
Then others weigh in about her lack of awareness of the horse's communication and that she needs to back up but not to worry, in 20 years she'll be able to stand within 5 feet of her horse. Okay, the last part is sarcasm on my part but you get the the idea.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in building a positive relationship with my horse. I've literally dedicated hours to it. But I don't know of any good relationship that exists without boundaries. And I worry that in our drive to have positive relationships with our horses we ignore this concept. I worry that we believe that if we can just listen and meet all the needs of our horses there will be a wonderful symbiotic relationship that is pure magic.
establishing boundaries with Quaid
Unfortunately, life does not work this way. I don't believe we need to be always yielding to our horses to have a partnership. In fact, I think that does the opposite- I think it makes us not important and, even more serious, I think it can lead to us getting seriously hurt.
In the above scenario I think that the horse has learned to chase the person out. I worry that the behaviour will get more aggressive. Not that it matters what I think. I am not a trainer, I am just a woman who has horses. In case you were wondering, I do not respond with my thoughts on those types of posts. I don't think that it would be helpful and I am sure that my answer is not the one they are looking for.
I do believe that it's important to listen to the horse we're with. And that there is enough history of us ignoring every communication from the horse and that has lead to harm too. In thinking back over the years of horses I have known (in riding schools, boarding barns and even my own) I am sure that the behaviours they exhibited were of pain and discomfort.
Long time followers may recall my early years with Carmen. Back when it was a good ride if I had less than 3 out of control bolts per ride. Each time she would spook I would let her leave the area and have a break away from it. I interpreted her behaviour as fear and tried to mitigate it. Looking back I realise that it was actually telling me two things: one that she had ulcers (which I treated) and two that bolting was the only way she knew of to deal with pressure. And it worked, she'd bolt and the work would stop. While I didn't create this behaviour I reinforced it far too long. It got to the point that the only place I could ride. her was the centre circle and that was becoming dangerous. Fortunately, I got help and things are in a far better place.
screen grab from yesterday's lesson
I try to take what Carmen and Quaid are doing as information. I form a hypothesis and then figure out what the right answer is. Because the truth is that there is no one right answer. So much depends on context, history that it would be foolish to believe that the same answer is always the right one. I make this sound very deliberate, and while it is, a lot of it happens pretty organically. Here's a brief clip from our lesson yesterday. I was trying to clarify some aids with Jane when Carmen saw something in the next field. She immediately froze. Old Carmen would have followed that with a bolt. I saw her notice, looked over and saw nothing (I figured it was my cat) and then redirected her thoughts back to where she was. Here's a brief clip:
I would never have had her settle so fast if I hadn't spent time on reinforcing what was okay behaviour and what was not. Carmen will always have feelings (lots and lots of feelings) and I don't interfere with them. But there are lines that we both understand. For example, she hates having the bottom of her belly brushed. I know that and try to keep it brief. But sometimes she lays in poo over night and it's crusty. Leaving it is not an option and I have to scrub at it to get it. She hates that with the passion of a 100 demons. I don't correct her ear pinning or faces. I acknowledge it and keep going. But if she swings her head around to make contact (note Carmen has never bitten me. Not once) I correct that immediately. And then carry on.
I don't know of anyone, human or otherwise, only gets to do and experience what they like. Teaching a horse about boundaries is not only good for the relationship it can save a life. How can we expect a farrier or vet to help our horses if they can't touch them because the horse is 'not ready'. I've seen a lot of negative posts on social media about a vet or farrier refusing to work with a feral horse that can't even have a halter put on. Like seriously? Recognising communication does not necessarily mean going along with it. It can mean that we have to figure out how to 'explain' it better or simply know that we need to get to the other side of this.
I do not always get it right in my response. Sometimes I miss things I should have fixed. Especially with Quaid because he's so low key and typically sweet. I am okay with getting it wrong. Well, not really but I do my best to learn from it.
I want to share this video from the lesson too. We're working on getting soft contact and that requires letting go. There's no way I would have gotten this work from her even last year. Giving the rein gave her freedom to go sideways. But we keep working and setting boundaries and now look at this mare going softly and happily forward (mostly).
My boundaries have shifted over the years. and I know that mine are different than other horse people. That is fine. We're all on this journey and there is no one path. But there have to be boundaries. Do you agree? What are your non-negotiables? I'm okay if you think I'm wrong and we should always do what the horse is feeling. I'm probably not going to change but I'm open to flexing a little.
I think you are spot on! There absolutely has to be safety boundaries on the ground and under saddle. I will forever be working on not inadvertently giving/teaching my horses the "wrong message". Some days/situations are easier than others.
My non-negotiables revolve around my safety first, and also theirs. Basic ground manners. No aggression towards humans! In the barn or pasture.
I enjoyed watching your lesson clips! Nicely done. It is nothing short of challenging to listen and adjust, while doing 10 things at the same time.
I see a lot of those posts too and I just cringe at the direction so many people are going with their what I call touchy feely woo woo crap. I just bite my tongue (fingers? ) and keep on scrolling.... Yes boundaries are important- I don't want to get hurt and I don't need my horse getting in a wreck either emotionally or physically. I let my mare know that I am present for her but try to make sure she is present for me too. You and Carmen have come a long way! It's such a credit to you and your teachers that you overcame the bolting in both her and the way you handle it. (I would probably have been a dirt dart so many times!) Quaide is going to benefit so much from your progress.
Thank you for that. Like I’m pretty sure that the trainers don’t hav3 these issues because they know how to set a boundary. I think that each new horse benefits from the ones that have gone before.
You’re absolutely right. What you leave a horse with is what you teach. If I find a spot that I can’t see through the training, but the horse is refusing, I stop and get help before proceeding. I don’t want to cement ‘no’ as a habit, reinforcing their fear or refusal. Once it’s cemented, it’s very hard to get past. And I have learned that the hard way.
Yeah, my trainer sees a lot more pushing of the "boundaries" than I do. For example, lately Tweed doesn't want to get into a lope, and I was seeing it as just being really laid back, but she saw it as a challenge to my authority. Guess who was right?
*slow clap* --- love this post, and the concept is so so SO important, yet somehow people seem to miss it? like, i get that a lot of our physical responses to horses can be subconscious and instinctive (like, omg get out of the way of that gigantic creature before it smooshes you!). but anybody who spends any amount of time observing horses in a herd setting can soon recognize that... horses are often pretty, uh, *direct* in their communication with each other --- much of which results in quite literally moving each other around. some horses do the moving, some get moved. in my experience, most horses are more comfortable (and confident!) when they trust the leadership of the one doing the moving, and in the absence of a reliable leader, will attempt to fill the gap themselves. establishing boundaries is therefore key in deciding that leadership piece.
a trainer once told me that the best riders and horse people are both soft AND effective.... but that for most mere mortals, it's necessary to be effective *first*, and refine from there
Learning about L.I.M.A. training made a lot of things make sense in my mind about animal training. There is a lot of jargon but it gives you 5 steps to go through before punishment. Ulcer medicine is part of step one for a lot of horses actually.
Such a lovely post and love the soft contact and connection in your photos. Ive been learning to be more forgiving of mistakes, as long as I get an ear. Bolts, spooks, refusals, dont bother me much anymore as long as I get a quick flick of an ear. My horse is the most forgiving of all. And my greatest teacher. ❤️
This post is very timely for me. Two baby horses that I'd love to have nothing but fun happy positive times with. But someone (yay, it's me!) needs to teach them about what is unsafe and unacceptable behaviour around humans.
Yes to all of this. I think I know the group, and it is definitely difficult to be in there sometimes with the posts and the comments. I am in another group for dogs that is like this sometimes. I had to comment on a certain post because the issue was very obviously not the dog's fault, he is still a dog. Dogs are dogs. Horses are horses. People forget that all the time and I feel it is the upmost disrespect to treat a dog or horse like a person. We all have to meet in the middle, the basis of any relationship. That is kind of like the boundary line. It can shift and give and take a little because we are all individuals and there are so many other factors because we are not in an isolated world, we are never perfect and neither are they. Give the animal upmost respect and empathy and stop seeing/living solely in your own perspective. People are often one or the other in many things, very rarely both or in the middle. I am glad that people are moving more towards seeing things from the horse's perspective, but in their try to be better, they have wholly missed the point and mark by going way to far. People often also forget that horses also have boundaries with each other and their world. Many people do not have boundaries in their people lives either.
I met a horse that had learned to be extremely dominant. I didn't know the circumstances that created such dangerous behaviors, but this particular horse was most certainly dangerous. A dangerous horse is doomed, because very few will offer it a forever home. Establishing boundaries is essential to the longevity of the animal as much as it is to the safety of the humans with whom it interacts. Yielding space plants the seed that the horse is in charge.
Yes! I always say that my dogs and horses have to well enough behaved so that someone will want them if anything happens to me. I hate it when a person is hurt.
This is such a good post! I think everyone is happier when there are boundaries and when those boundaries are clear and consistent. I didn't realize how squishy some boundaries had become with my older horses until I got Madigan. He needed a lot of clear guidance as a baby because he just didn't know! How was he going to figure out how far he should stay from me while being led? Not by telepathy! Enforcing boundaries with him led me to enforcing them more consistently with my other horses and everyone is happier.
So funny you would post about this right now, as Al and I have been talking about boundaries, feelings, and our reactions. I told him he's allowed to feel all of his feelings, but he has to control his reactions to those feelings. I'm not sure he speaks English though, so it will be a slow process... I've also been working on being very clear with my expectations both in and out of the tack. He likes to paw on the cross ties when I'm grooming him. I hate this behavior. I used to mostly ignore it, but lately I've just not allowed it at all. I can actually see him start to do it now and then change his mind. He still tries A LOT, but at least he's starting to think about not doing it. Baby steps. Anyway, I've rambled a lot here, tldr, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I think you are spot on! There absolutely has to be safety boundaries on the ground and under saddle. I will forever be working on not inadvertently giving/teaching my horses the "wrong message". Some days/situations are easier than others.
ReplyDeleteMy non-negotiables revolve around my safety first, and also theirs. Basic ground manners. No aggression towards humans! In the barn or pasture.
I enjoyed watching your lesson clips! Nicely done. It is nothing short of challenging to listen and adjust, while doing 10 things at the same time.
Oh my god, I sometimes feel like I have 10 balls in the air in a lesson! But I get so much benefit too.
DeleteAnd I agree that safety is always paramount.
I see a lot of those posts too and I just cringe at the direction so many people are going with their what I call touchy feely woo woo crap. I just bite my tongue (fingers? ) and keep on scrolling.... Yes boundaries are important- I don't want to get hurt and I don't need my horse getting in a wreck either emotionally or physically. I let my mare know that I am present for her but try to make sure she is present for me too.
ReplyDeleteYou and Carmen have come a long way! It's such a credit to you and your teachers that you overcame the bolting in both her and the way you handle it. (I would probably have been a dirt dart so many times!)
Quaide is going to benefit so much from your progress.
Thank you for that. Like I’m pretty sure that the trainers don’t hav3 these issues because they know how to set a boundary. I think that each new horse benefits from the ones that have gone before.
DeleteYou’re absolutely right. What you leave a horse with is what you teach. If I find a spot that I can’t see through the training, but the horse is refusing, I stop and get help before proceeding. I don’t want to cement ‘no’ as a habit, reinforcing their fear or refusal. Once it’s cemented, it’s very hard to get past. And I have learned that the hard way.
ReplyDeleteIt is great thst you have such a good trainer to help through the nopes.
DeleteYeah, my trainer sees a lot more pushing of the "boundaries" than I do. For example, lately Tweed doesn't want to get into a lope, and I was seeing it as just being really laid back, but she saw it as a challenge to my authority. Guess who was right?
DeleteHa! I can so relate.
Delete*slow clap* --- love this post, and the concept is so so SO important, yet somehow people seem to miss it? like, i get that a lot of our physical responses to horses can be subconscious and instinctive (like, omg get out of the way of that gigantic creature before it smooshes you!). but anybody who spends any amount of time observing horses in a herd setting can soon recognize that... horses are often pretty, uh, *direct* in their communication with each other --- much of which results in quite literally moving each other around. some horses do the moving, some get moved. in my experience, most horses are more comfortable (and confident!) when they trust the leadership of the one doing the moving, and in the absence of a reliable leader, will attempt to fill the gap themselves. establishing boundaries is therefore key in deciding that leadership piece.
ReplyDeletea trainer once told me that the best riders and horse people are both soft AND effective.... but that for most mere mortals, it's necessary to be effective *first*, and refine from there
To be honest, I think every creature is happier when they know the rules.
DeleteLearning about L.I.M.A. training made a lot of things make sense in my mind about animal training. There is a lot of jargon but it gives you 5 steps to go through before punishment. Ulcer medicine is part of step one for a lot of horses actually.
ReplyDeleteIt amazing how much we didn’t understand about ulcers not thst long ago.
DeleteSuch a lovely post and love the soft contact and connection in your photos. Ive been learning to be more forgiving of mistakes, as long as I get an ear. Bolts, spooks, refusals, dont bother me much anymore as long as I get a quick flick of an ear. My horse is the most forgiving of all. And my greatest teacher. ❤️
ReplyDeleteYou have a wonderful horse and you worked hard with him to build that partnership.
DeleteThis post is very timely for me. Two baby horses that I'd love to have nothing but fun happy positive times with. But someone (yay, it's me!) needs to teach them about what is unsafe and unacceptable behaviour around humans.
ReplyDeleteIt can be a bit much at times with youngsters.
DeleteYes to all of this. I think I know the group, and it is definitely difficult to be in there sometimes with the posts and the comments. I am in another group for dogs that is like this sometimes. I had to comment on a certain post because the issue was very obviously not the dog's fault, he is still a dog. Dogs are dogs. Horses are horses. People forget that all the time and I feel it is the upmost disrespect to treat a dog or horse like a person. We all have to meet in the middle, the basis of any relationship. That is kind of like the boundary line. It can shift and give and take a little because we are all individuals and there are so many other factors because we are not in an isolated world, we are never perfect and neither are they. Give the animal upmost respect and empathy and stop seeing/living solely in your own perspective. People are often one or the other in many things, very rarely both or in the middle. I am glad that people are moving more towards seeing things from the horse's perspective, but in their try to be better, they have wholly missed the point and mark by going way to far. People often also forget that horses also have boundaries with each other and their world. Many people do not have boundaries in their people lives either.
ReplyDeleteI couldn’t agree with you more.
DeleteI met a horse that had learned to be extremely dominant. I didn't know the circumstances that created such dangerous behaviors, but this particular horse was most certainly dangerous. A dangerous horse is doomed, because very few will offer it a forever home. Establishing boundaries is essential to the longevity of the animal as much as it is to the safety of the humans with whom it interacts. Yielding space plants the seed that the horse is in charge.
ReplyDeleteYes! I always say that my dogs and horses have to well enough behaved so that someone will want them if anything happens to me. I hate it when a person is hurt.
DeleteThis is such a good post! I think everyone is happier when there are boundaries and when those boundaries are clear and consistent. I didn't realize how squishy some boundaries had become with my older horses until I got Madigan. He needed a lot of clear guidance as a baby because he just didn't know! How was he going to figure out how far he should stay from me while being led? Not by telepathy! Enforcing boundaries with him led me to enforcing them more consistently with my other horses and everyone is happier.
ReplyDeleteSo funny you would post about this right now, as Al and I have been talking about boundaries, feelings, and our reactions. I told him he's allowed to feel all of his feelings, but he has to control his reactions to those feelings. I'm not sure he speaks English though, so it will be a slow process...
ReplyDeleteI've also been working on being very clear with my expectations both in and out of the tack. He likes to paw on the cross ties when I'm grooming him. I hate this behavior. I used to mostly ignore it, but lately I've just not allowed it at all. I can actually see him start to do it now and then change his mind. He still tries A LOT, but at least he's starting to think about not doing it. Baby steps.
Anyway, I've rambled a lot here, tldr, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Carmen used to paw a lot. She’s much better but it still comes out on occasion.
Delete